Allison Kaplan Sommer, Sara Hirschhorn and Noah Efron discuss (1) when is it genocide, and does it matter if people use that word or not, and why, and (2) Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich’s claim that this week he (and Israel) just put the kibash, once and for all, on the two-state solution.
Plus, a principal with principles, a stand-up comedian with heart, a workaround for high-ticket prices for concerts, and more music of these lousy times!
For our most unreasonably generous Patreon supporters, in our extra-special, special extra discussion: Dozens of Orthodox rabbis from around the world call for Israel to reconsider what is is doing in Gaza. Should we be shocked?
Songs
- Maya Rutter — HaYareach Yaffe Rak Keshe Hu Rahok
- Neomi Hashmonai — La-Amod al Kokhav
- Gon Ben Ari & Makhelat Zulat — Ha-Shever ha-Suri Afrikai
After listening to this prodcast several thought occured to me. Phillipe Sands sounds like a man with hanner for whom all problems are nails. I don’t listen to NYT pocasts so I don’t knwoth whole thing but from hwat I heard he appears totally ignorant of the laws of armed conflict. Any facility that is used for military ouroaoses becomes a legitimate target. You can’t hide a command post in a hospital and claim that it may not be attacked. In additon much of Gaza is booby trapped or contains enetrnace and exits to fortifications. The tinnage of bombs droppeded is not proof that people have been killed. In WWII precision bombing turned out to be impossible despite the claims of rhr Norden Bomb Sight. We cna do much better now and the IDF has sent out warnings. What he and like minded individuals can;t seem to accept is what William Tecumsah Sherman said over 100 years ago. “war is cruelty, you cannot refine it.” If you don;tlike war don;t start one.
Antoehr point that I was glad see brought up inyour podcast was thet the other side has a vote. I don’t see how the conflict with Hamas (NOT the Palestinians) can be ended without the destruction of either Hamas or Israel. My reading of the history is that if the Paletinians are give a bloody enough nose there will be an opportunity for peace,, “with malice towardss none and charity towards all.”
I’m sorry, but Sarah Hirschhorn adds nothing of value to this discussion. Yes, Oct. 7 was arguably genocidal – which is why the ICC also brought charges against members of Hamas. She suggests that Gazans could voluntarily leave and return later. Does she seriously believe that the Israeli government enthusiastically embracing Trump’s Gaza Riviera plan would let them return? I suspect she is far too smart to seriously believe that. Furthermore, she makes a terrible analogy regarding Hitler in his bunker. But I suspect that if someone pointed out that the Israeli government was guilty of dehumanizing Palestinians, similarly to how the Nazis dehumanized us, she’d be among the first to accuse that person of antisemitism for daring compare the Israeli government to the Nazis.
I was so disappointed to hear Sara Hirschhorn in this episode. While it is important to represent different views, her comments significantly reduced the integrity of your podcast, at least to those of us who feel devastated about the status quo and want to hear a sensible and thoughtful discussion. She brings up arguments and accusations directly from a blindly pro-Israel playbook which have either been clearly shown to be falsehoods or are what you would expect from someone who supports Palestinian oppression. The best examples are questioning the death data from the Gazan health ministry – these data are actually used by Israel as the most accurate data, and are thought by experts to underestimate the number of deaths. She also touched on getting Gazans to leave (to a “tent in the Sinai” instead of stay on their land); shame on her for her lack of compassion for people who have been forced to move multiple times and who are ill, elderly and starving. She also made an analogy about Hitler in his bunker which was awful.
Aside from her specific negative contributions to the episode, very importantly, I was very upset to see where the topic discussed (the issue of Genocide and Ezra Klein’s podcast) landed. The Ezra Klein podcast is very valuable and educational, and I would have hoped that the Promised podcast would focus on the conclusion, which is that it doesn’t matter what the current actions of Israel are termed – (war crimes, crimes against humanity or genocide), nor whether the crime of genocide does get upheld in a court of law), the ongoing war is unacceptable, should not be happening, and is against international law. The international law is in place for all of our protections, including the protection of Israel, and is not for Israel to ignore. And I was hoping for more discussion about why 79% of Israels polled are pretty indifferent to the suffering of Gazans.